Grandma Moses started painting seriously at 78. Norman Maclean published his first novel, A River Runs Through It, at 74. Truly, it’s never too late to start painting, drawing, writing, making music, dancing—whatever inspires you. The creative payoffs can be huge. But it also presents challenges: you must be willing to learn and be a "beginner" again, take some risks, and be open to critique.
Canadian artist Janice Mason Steeves, herself a late bloomer, joins us to talk about her book, Bloom: On Becoming An Artist Later in Life. In it, she shares thoughts and observations from dozens of older artists who describe their creative journeys and explain how art has helped them find their voices, know themselves better, and become more enlightened.
Steeves also discusses the idea of “elderhood” – the idea that artists can use their enlightenment to make the world a stronger, kinder, more interconnected place. She manifests the concept of elderhood through her “Workshops in Wild Places” programs that allow her to take fellow artists to beautiful, remote locations around the world to connect to and be inspired by nature.
For more information on Janice Mason Steeves, her art, book, and workshops, visit www.janicemasonsteeves.com
Grandma Moses started painting seriously at 78. Norman Maclean published his first novel, A River Runs Through It, at 74. Truly, it’s never too late to start painting, drawing, writing, making music, dancing—whatever inspires you. The creative payoffs can be huge. But it also presents challenges: you must be willing to learn and be a "beginner" again, take some risks, and be open to critique.
Canadian artist Janice Mason Steeves, herself a late bloomer, joins us to talk about her book, Bloom: On Becoming An Artist Later in Life. In it, she shares thoughts and observations from dozens of older artists who describe their creative journeys and explain how art has helped them find their voices, know themselves better, and become more enlightened.
Steeves also discusses the idea of “elderhood” – the idea that artists can use their enlightenment to make the world a stronger, kinder, more interconnected place. She manifests the concept of elderhood through her “Workshops in Wild Places” programs that allow her to take fellow artists to beautiful, remote locations around the world to connect to and be inspired by nature.
For more information on Janice Mason Steeves, her art, book, and workshops, visit www.janicemasonsteeves.com
Janice Mason Steeves 00:00
It just happened very slowly. I mean, the classes that I took completely turned me on. And I mean, they opened a door in me that I did not even know existed. And I would come home and I couldn't sleep the whole rest of the night because it was just so exciting.
Voice Over 00:16
This is Crow's Feet. A place where we ponder the question, Are these our golden years? Or does aging just suck? Well, yes, getting older is not for the faint hearted. But aging also brings wisdom and humor, a finely tuned perspective on life. In our podcast, you'll meet writers and others rethinking our later years, people who inspire us to reimagine our future.
Betsy Allen 00:48
It all started with a dream. Years ago, Canadian visual artist Janice Mason Steeves dreamt that she had authored a book. It seemed like a good thing. But the vision was incomplete. She didn't know what it was about or why she had written it. Yet it felt like something important. Janice, a self described late bloomer had become an artist following a successful career in psychology. She found in painting her true life's passion, and later even started teaching art classes. But she found herself wanting to find out what made others take on creative endeavors as older adults, what made it challenging or even scary, but also why it was so very rewarding. An open query on social media led to a questionnaire that more than 100 artists answered, eager to share their stories. Those responses became the seed for that dreamed about book Janice wrote and published in 2023, called Bloom on Becoming an Artist Later in Life. I’m Betsy Allen and in this episode, you'll hear Janice, along with two of the many artists who responded to her questionnaire, Cynthia Lee and Jeanette Cook, speak of art, aging, and how much we have to gain by getting in touch with our creative selves. Welcome, Janice.
Janice Mason Steeves 02:05
Oh, thank you for inviting me and giving me this opportunity to talk about my book. I appreciate that.
Betsy Allen 02:10
In your book Bloom, you characterize yourself as a late bloomer. Someone who didn't become an artist until later in life. So I have to know, what were you doing before you bloomed? What were you doing earlier in your life?
Janice Mason Steeves 02:24
Well, I studied psychology in university. And my husband and I were moving around Ontario, and Canada actually with his job. And I was working in psychology. In school psychology or mental hospitals. And then, honestly, it was just as easy as a friend saying, let's take a ceramics class. I did that. And that just, and then, I did that for fifteen years. Another friend said, let's take a watercolor class. That actually was what turned the creative juices on for me, because I never stopped painting after that. And that was when I was in my mid t30’s. I guess, mid to late 30’s when I did that. So I'm a late bloomer, but not as old as some of the people that I teach in my workshops.
Betsy Allen 03:11
Did you have an inkling early on or desire that you might want to be an artist, like when you were in school, when you were young?
Janice Mason Steeves 03:17
I never thought I was the least bit artistic. Never did any kind of...I mean I've always enjoyed art in school, but I just thought you had to be born with a pencil in your mouth to be an artist, right? But a lot of the people that I interviewed for my book were people that were discouraged from becoming artists. Some unbelievably insensitive teachers told the kids they didn't have a chance or their work was no good, or they weren't talented. And such a small thing as one sentence like that can discourage a kid for their whole life.
Betsy Allen 03:57
That’s sad, isn't it? I mean, it's at a point when your creative juices are flowing. And somebody's like, you know, don't quit your day job, kid.
Janice Mason Steeves 04:07
I know. One person talked about being in kindergarten. And her kindergarten teacher held her work up in front of the class and said, now, this is an example of bad art. Because she had done blue clouds and white sky. And the whole class started to laugh. And the poor little kid went home crying. And then never did any more art until she was maybe in her mid 60’s.
Betsy Allen 04:36
You took some classes in ceramics. You took some classes in painting. What made you think, yeah, this is something that I really want to move on with, and make it a huge part of my life
Janice Mason Steeves 04:48
It just happened very slowly. I mean, the classes that I took completely turned me on. And I mean, they opened a door in me that I did not even know existed. So that happened first of all with the ceramics class. And I would come home and I couldn't sleep the whole rest of the night because it was just so exciting. And ceramics is so difficult. There's so much technical information you have to know, and be able to deal with. And I did not realize that when I started ceramics. I was just interested in the creative part of it. When I went into watercolor, it was the same, but there wasn't the technical aspect of it. So I could just get into it. And that's what started me off with just the joy of it.
Betsy Allen 05:35
You, in 2019, posted on Facebook. and you asked artists to share the stories of their artistic journeys, and .you focused on artists who were, you know, 60 years or older? Why did you make that post? What was the thinking behind it?
Janice Mason Steeves 05:50
I think I told you the story. I jot down in the book about how I had a dream when I was at an artist residency in 2015. And the dream was me standing in front of a group of people talking about and holding in my hand a book I'd written and talking about that book. And I had not written a book, and I was not the least bit interested in writing a book. Then after the dream, I had to figure out what was this book about? What was it for? So it got me trying to figure out how to write a book about it. And by 2019, the book had lived with me, staying with me, staying with me, staying with me. And by 2019, I figured, okay, I have to do something about this book. And that's when I had the idea of posting on Facebook and asking older artists. I just had the understanding that I was to write a book about older artists. But that's all I knew. And so how was I going to do that? And so I thought, if I get information from people I invite to give me their stories, then I can maybe put something together with that. So that's what I did.
Betsy Allen 07:01
How old were you when you actually made that query on Facebook?
Janice Mason Steeves 07:05
So, I would have been nearly 70? No, I was in my 70’s. Yeah, gee, I never thought about that before. So I'm now in my late 70’s. So yeah, it's never too late.
(both laugh)
Betsy Allen 07:21
How many responses did you get to your Facebook posts?
Janice Mason Steeves 07:23
Oh I got 170 responses to the Facebook post. And then from that, then I sent out a questionnaire that I had made up. I sent it out to all 170. And from that, I got back 138. And that's what I used to put together the book. All that information. But I still, even though I got the information back, and even though all these people responded, I still did not know what to do with all the information I had.
Betsy Allen 07:56
The 138 responses you got? How did that break down? How many men responded? How many women? What age ranges?
Janice Mason Steeves 08:04
Well, I asked for ages between 60 and 80. There were very few men. I mean, maybe like, I don't know, 20 men out of that like, attend all the art classes. It's almost all women that continue to grow and learn as we get older. I did not say I only wanted women. But maybe there's more men out there but they didn't want to do a questionnaire. That's what I don't know.
Betsy Allen 08:26
And what did you ask them? What did you ask the people who you queried, the 138?
Janice Mason Steeves 08:33
I asked them if they would tell me about their journey to become an artist, first of all. And then I asked them, what challenges did they face becoming artists? What benefits did they find in becoming an artist? What regrets did they have? And what was sort of like the most important thing that they would have learned on the journey to become an artist? That's then how I use the information to divide it into chapters and divide the book up.
Betsy Allen 09:04
So, for you, why do you think this time is actually great for people? These older times in our lives?
Janice Mason Steeves 09:12
I think we have the most time because our kids are grown up. Our parents are likely in retirement homes or perhaps passed on. All of a sudden, you’re retired from your work. All of a sudden, you have all this free time, and what are you going to do with it? There was a study in the journal Clinical Psychiatry about people's search for meaning later on in their lives. And so they've got this free time, but what are they going to do with it now? It's sort of like they want to have one more try. Maybe their work wasn't meaningful. And so they're going to try to find some meaning in their life. And that is one of the interesting things that would attract people to become artists. And so in my book also I don't just mean people can be painters, it could be sculptors or gardeners or whatever kind of creative endeavor they choose.
Betsy Allen 10:11
The artists who answered your questionnaire, what did they tell you? What kind of benefits were they finding?
Janice Mason Steeves 10:16
Joy was one of the biggest ones, and community. So they're meeting people that have the same or that are like minded. So that are interested in learning and growing and changing and still developing themselves, even though they are over 60. It's also a way of traveling. They enjoy the traveling that could happen with art. ‘Cause there are lots of travel workshops. I mean, as you probably know, I lead travel workshops. And also healing. Several of the people talked about how healing was so important to them. And how powerful art was in their healing. One of the most interesting benefits to me was they would learn about themselves. That was actually the most important one, learning about themselves, knowing themselves better. Who would have expected that? I never expected that. I thought it would be something like they're interested in filling their time in retirement or touching into an old activity that they used to love when they were children. And that may be why they originally came to art was because they were connecting with their souls as children. But what happened was that they ended up learning about themselves and knowing themselves better, which doesn't happen right away, it's sort of the kind of thing that you that happens over time, as you become an artist,
Betsy Allen 11:42
I wonder if that's partially the process of doing it? The skills you have to learn, if it's paint on canvas, or it's writing and actually making meaning with words or, you know, the finished product. And it's probably a little of both, but what we choose to paint. What we choose to express with our painting, those kinds of things, when you talk about making meaning
Janice Mason Steeves 12:08
All of those things, learning patience. Learning to be authentic. Learning what it is you want to say. I mean, that's a huge thing that people are always searching for their own voice. Accepting yourself. Like accepting that you're not going to do everything perfectly, and that you're going to be rejected from shows. And you'll also win awards in other shows. Like, it's so much different than coming as a young person. I mean, I couldn't have done that. I was too…I was so sensitive. If I had been rejected, or somebody had said something rude about my work, that would have just turned me right off. And I probably would have quit. But I think as you come as an older person, you've got a lot more self confidence. It doesn't mean you're not going to be upset when you're rejected from a show. But it just means that you can then come back, that you can bounce back.
Betsy Allen 13:01
Yeah, I'd like to think that you can. You know, as you get older, maybe you take criticism a little bit better, because you've been around the block, to actually be able to kind of take that in stride and kind of, you know, know who you are. I am interested in what we were talking about before about the preponderance of women who actually responded to this questionnaire. Who were willing to talk about this process. And I wonder if being able to take criticism, work with it, have a sense of self is something women can do well.
Janice Mason Steeves 13:38
I think that's true. I asked a lot of my friends who are art teachers, and I asked at art schools, who are the majority of the people that you teach here? The older people. And that's why, most often, older women come to workshops. Older women are the ones that take classes at art schools, in the summers. And in the evenings. It's women. Women are interested in continuing to learn and grow as they get older.
Betsy Allen 14:05
One of those women continuing to learn and grow is visual artist, Cynthia Lee.
Cynthia Lee14:09
I'm very confident that I have a voice, and I know myself. And I know what I love. And I know how important it is for me to communicate that. And that, over time, I think, really builds confidence. And that's one of the things that I think people who come later to art have a much stronger sense of who they are. And it probably, more than anything, becomes a matter of just trusting that you have that. And going with it and just getting it out there. Because if you worry too much about what others will think of it, you will get stopped very quickly. So it's how to write for yourself, how to paint for yourself. What brings you joy when you finish it? Can you say, yes, that's exactly what I wanted to try to express? I did that, and I feel really good about it.
Betsy Allen 15:01
You know, the other side of this coin, and something you mentioned that you asked about in the questionnaire, were the challenges. Or the things that you kind of have to get over or work around, when it comes to taking on a new creative endeavor. And I was wondering if you could speak to those a little bit, especially the first one, kind of resonated with me, which is self doubt.
Janice Mason Steeves 15:23
Yeah, self-doubt, of course; it doesn't matter your age. The thing is you always are, have doubt. And particularly when you're changing careers. I mean, you're basically, you don't realize that at the beginning, when you start to become an artist. But as you go along, then you eventually start to call yourself an artist. And then you wonder if you deserve that title. And then all of those questions that come along Also, changing identity. You know, it's hard if you have been really successful in your career, and then you become an artist, and you're starting at nothing. Everybody's better than you are. Well, that's the way you feel at the beginning, right?
Betsy Allen 16:03
That is the way every writer feels I can tell you that right now.
Janice Mason Steeves 16:09
Absolutely, you're becoming a beginner again. In other words, which is a powerful thing to do. To become a beginner. It opens you up, and you open and grow and learn. It's just a hard thing to do.
Betsy Allen 16:29
You're listening to Janice Mason Steeves on the Crow's Feet podcast. And we're talking with her about what it's like to embrace creativity later in life. Whether you paint, draw, sculpt, write, dance, even garden, keep listening to hear Janice's advice for letting your creative self shine as you age.
Janice Mason Steeves 16:46
But the thing that happens in your artwork, or when you write new music, is that you're always treading that edge, right? That you're always on that edge. And I think that's what keeps the work fresh, is always to keep experimenting. New work. Developing new work that is going to test you. And some of it'll be accepted, but not all of it. And so you're always, I think, when you're in a creative world, you're always expending yourself. You're always on that edge.
Betsy Allen 17:20
Echoing that idea of continual growth is abstract painter, Jeanette Cook.
Jeanette Cook 17:26
They really realize that painting the visual arts, in some ways, is the same as dancing, music, or writing. You put in the time, and also you choreograph. So I choreograph all my paintings, because I feel like I understand painting better that way. You know, by going to drawing group and by doing figurative work, and by doing landscapes, kind of like taking ballet for me. Yeah, now you got to do it. You got to get the technique, you got to understand the materials. But really, abstraction for me, is the improvisational moment where you're like, oh, yeah, this is what it's all about. (laughing) And so yeah, that's why I paint because I really, you know, I necessarily wanted to be a painter. It's just that I couldn't be a dancer anymore. I was too old. My body just couldn't do it. And it allows for that creative outlet. That's just evidently very important to me.
Betsy Allen 18:35
Something you mentioned in your book about the most important benefit of art and what we've talked about a little bit earlier, getting to know yourself better, You close your book, and you open it with the same line from George Eliot, which is: “It's never too late to be what you might have been.”
Janice Mason Steeves 18:56
I believe that. I mean, I figure if I could do it, so can anybody. Really I do, I do. If I could learn to paint, if I can even write a book, oh my God, how did I do that? But if you just take a step forward. Just pick a step. Take another step, then that's where you do it, is just by trying.
Betsy Allen 19:16
Right, that kind of leads into my next question, which was about what kind of advice you would give to people who want to start but just don't know how to start? How do you as an older person, how would an older person get started?
Janice Mason Steeves 19:30
Just pick a class. I mean, the classes anyway, are filled with older people. So you're going to feel right at home. Honestly, it's just a matter of signing up for a class. Whatever kind of class whether it's music, or whether it's writing, or whether it's whatever, collage or painting or going to do it.
Betsy Allen 19:49
You talk about this sense of elderhood, being a kind of a creative person out in the world. Talk a little bit about that. What’s the term elderhood mean to you?
Janice Mason Steeves 20:01
My own feeling is that it's somebody that's older who is opening to their inner consciousness. So you're opening to finding out who you are. Through yoga or through self knowledge, or self reflection, or meditation or mindfulness. Things that weren't available to our parents when they were younger. And they weren’t able to develop inner consciousness to open up their consciousness, so that they could learn about themselves and their relationship with the world. Many painters come to paint landscapes, or paint the world. Why not, then, take that love of the world into your art and opening that up so that you tell people what you're doing. You talk about that. You talk about taking that love of the world into the world, and teaching people about that. So it's like a responsibility that comes, I had not thought of this before. I think that it took me that many years to write the book. Because I got the dream in 2015. And I only just had it published in the fall. I think it took that many years, because I needed to figure that out. I needed to understand what happens as an artist. What happens to your inner self, as you develop yourself through art, or whatever process you do through yoga, or whatever,
Betsy Allen 21:28
I really love that idea that is expressed about how you don't become an elder in the sense that we talk about elderhood, just by becoming old, that that's not what it's about. But it's about, kind of, self knowledge and self development. But it's also something you don't keep to yourself. You kind of let it loose upon the world, which in turn makes the world you know, a better, kinder, stronger place. And one of the things that really resonated with me is I think you talk about a psychologist named Bill Plotkin, who talks about the care of the Soul of the World. What did that mean to you?
Janice Mason Steeves 22:17
So he's talking about as an elder in this world, what are your responsibilities, and so it means holding the love of the world within you. That's how I think of it. You know, like, I teach workshops, and I'm teaching, I'm trying to teach that, care for the Soul of the World, in my workshops, through teaching about love of the world connecting with the earth. And then how do you spread that to other people? So as an artist, you have that perfect opportunity to talk about your work in artist statements, and when you're giving a show or a lecture or talking to your grandchildren.
Betsy Allen 23:00
Beautiful. And it's an aspect of aging I hadn't thought about before. To take that growth and development that art can give you or, you know, any creative endeavor. Where you're creating something. And being able to spread that around and be generous with it is just a lovely thought.
Janice Mason Steeves 23:22
It's a lovely thought. It's sort of like, then being an elder still has a purpose of growth, it has a purpose of giving back to the world in a totally different way. And that's something that we haven't explored, I don't think is elders in our society. We even denigrate people that are older. We make fun of people that are older. And often people that are older, try to look young, you know, they do stuff with their face and their clothes and their hair and they've tried to look young. That's not giving it justice, what the growth is that we learn as we get older.
Betsy Allen 24:05
You know, it's an amazing book. I love the many quotes not only from some amazing writers, and and thinkers, but also from the people who responded to the questionnaire itself. Because they have so much to say about art and about aging and about, you know, kind of the things of their lives that have made a difference to them with those aspects. But we have three signature Crow's Feet questions that we like to ask of our guests. And the first one is: What about your own aging has surprised you?
Janice Mason Steeves 24:41
I think the same as what came up in the book, is the way I continue to learn and grow. Also, the surprises that have happened. I didn't start to teach workshops until I was 65 just beyond 65. And how that really changed my life. And then I came up with the idea of my travel workshops: Workshops in Wild Places. And that also has changed my life. So it's a matter of being courageous. I think I'm more courageous as I get older, because who cares, right? And maybe don't have that many years left. And so I may as well just go for it.
Betsy Allen 25:24
The next question: What would you tell your 25 year old self about aging? Or about life?
Janice Mason Steeves 25:30
Oh, that it only gets better. I think it just only gets better. I mean, physically, take good care of yourself, which is a really important thing, which you don't always do. And I suppose one of the most important things is to say yes, just keep saying yes. When opportunities present themselves, say yes, don't shy away. You'll learn and grow from that.
Betsy Allen 25:55
And finally: What are you still trying to figure out about aging?
Janice Mason Steeves 26:03
(Laughing) I'm trying to figure out how I can take better care of my body. Because I'm gonna as I'm getting older, there's more physical things that have happened. I'm trying to figure out where my life is gonna go for the next 25 years. Yeah, you know, like, I just don't know. And so I'm willing to just sit in the not knowing
Betsy Allen 26:27
You've been listening to the Crow's Feet podcast. We'd like to thank our guest, Janice Mason Steeves and the contributing artists who shared thoughts on their creative journeys, Cynthia Lee, and Jeanette Cook. For more information on Janice's art, her book and her artists, program Workshops in Wild Places, please visit Janice Mason Steeve's dot com. You can find the link to her website in our show notes. This episode was produced by me, Betsy Allen. I want to thank the Crow's Feet podcast team, Nancy Peckenham founder, Rich Halten, our sound editor and designer, Nancy Franklin, our marketing and public relations expert and the Crow's Feet writers and editors who make up our team George “Ace” Acevedo, Lee Bench, Melinda Blau, Jean Feldeisen, Jan M. Flynn and Jane Trombley, the Crow's Feet original theme music was composed and performed by Rand Bishop.
Voice Over 27:29
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Crow's Feet: Life as We Age. Don't miss any of our great stories. Subscribe to Crow's Feet wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to tell your friends and family to give a listen to and leave a rating or review. You can read more Crow's Feet stories online at medium.com/crow’s-feet. So until next time, remember to savor every moment.
As Pablo Picasso said: “We don't grow older, we grow riper friends with the Crow's Feet.”