Are You Ever Too Old to Be Open to Love?

Join psychologists and seasoned relationship experts Drs. Gloria Horsley and Frank Powers sharing insights from their new book Open to Love: The Secrets of Senior Dating.  It’s a guide to stepping out into the bewildering and sometimes intimidating world of online dating.  Host Jane Trombley explores with them the joys and trials of forging a committed relationship, including their own, in one’s older years. 

Dr. Gloria Horsley, Ph.D. is a licensed marriage and family therapist and clinical nurse specialist.  She President and Co-founder of the Open to Hope Foundation, and a member of the Forbes Nonprofit Council. 

Dr. Frank Powers, Ph.D. has been a licensed psychologist in private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona, for the last 30 years. He served as Chairman of the Psychiatric Security Review Board for the State of Arizona and is now an award-winning sculptor. 

Gloria and Frank split their time between Palo Alto, California, and Scottsdale, Arizona.

Links: 

Amazon

Good Reads

Instagram

Transcript

Gloria Horsley

Dating is still like being back in high school. I mean, there's still that same energy. Do we connect? Are they turning me on?

Frank Powers

I was blown away because she was actually better than her profile. So I mean, oh my god, I, this is wonderful. 

Voiceover

This is Crow's Feet, a place where we ponder the question, are these our golden years? Or does aging just suck? Well, getting older is not for the faint-hearted, but aging also brings wisdom and humor, a finely tuned perspective on life. In our podcast, you'll meet writers and others rethinking our later years, people who inspire us to reimagine our future.

Jane Trombley

What is it like to try the dating scene as a senior? Hi, I'm Jane Trombley, host of the Crow's Feet podcast Valentine's Day Special. Of course, it's all about love. How do we find the next great love in our 50s, 60s, or beyond? Our guests and experts, Gloria Horsley and Frank Powers, are retired psychologists who know this turf well. They are the co-authors of a new book, Open to Love. It's a must-read for seniors who are at least curious about what Cupid might have in store. We spoke to them from their home in Arizona, and we'll put links in the show notes. 

Hi, welcome to Crow's Feet, Gloria and Frank, and congratulations on the publication of your book Open to Love. It is an exciting topic for a lot of seniors. And I think you come from a particular expertise. You have a professional grounding in relationship counseling, both couples, and, Gloria, in your case, in grief and bereavement. You've been in a committed two-year relationship with a romantic story of twists and turns. 

Gloria Horsley

Let me say one thing: I did not set out to write a book on online dating, absolutely not. I have never dated online in my life. I wanted women to have an idea of what it's like to go into a relationship when you're older. I mean, I was so blown away by the changes, by what was going on. I mean, I just wanted women to know what I had been up against. And then I decided I needed to do a chapter on online dating because the guy that I've been with, and had online dated, and he said to me, I'm going to be, 60, you know, I'll find somebody else or whatever. And I'm like, really? And then I met Frank, and I'm like, here he is, okay.

Jane Trombley

I think it's fair to say to our listeners that there's a spoiler alert. You met online.

Gloria Horsley

And Frank is four years younger than me. 

Frank Powers

Yes, I am addressing my relationship with a cougar.

Gloria Horsley

So anyway, we had so much to talk about because we're of the same era. And we had the same training and, you know, as therapists, he’s been a therapist for 40 years, I've been a therapist for 40 years. And we just have never parted ways. 

Frank Powers

Yeah, after meeting one another, it was hard to be separate. I mean, we just really enjoyed the connection.

Jane Trombley

But there's so much more to talk about. And so, Gloria, I'd like to start with your experience of becoming a widow after a 60-year marriage, and how that might have set the stage for writing Open to Love.

Gloria Horsley

I was married for 60 years and, I had had four kids. And my husband died after 60 years of marriage of a staph infection after surgery. And he had had a number of surgeries. So he had been ill before. But he did pass away from a staph infection. And I, because I was a therapist at the time and had been involved in the grief and loss world since my son was killed in an automobile accident many years earlier. And I had counseled myself, you know, do what you tell people to do. 

So, I decided I needed to sign up for a grief group, and it was COVID. So, it was online. And I met a guy who played golf. I'm an avid golfer. And so, we started playing golf together every day. And because his wife died two days after Phil. So this is five months in. And so you know, I would never say to somebody, Oh, you want to date after five months? That’s right, yes.  We were golfing. We golfed every single day. And I'm a pretty good golfer, and he was a really good golfer, so we golfed and golfed, and then, eventually, he moved in with me to my house. And you know, it was kind of the ins and outs because he had a little bit of trouble because I was still working and he wasn’t, and also, I've traveled with my grandkids. I was taking them to Africa, and he didn't want to go, and he wasn't happy that I was going. So it was fine as long as we were around golfing together. 

So, at Christmas time, after seven months of being with him, I had 27 people in Hawaii. We had a couple of big houses there, and my whole family congregated. And he came with us. Steve and I stayed a week later, which he wasn't happy about. And, you know, he was welcome to stay, but he didn't want to. 

And so he goes back to the house in Palo Alto and, and sends me a text that says, uh, you know, I should have talked to you about it earlier, but I want you to know, it's not working for me and the key’s on the counter. And I, [He ghosted her] keys on the counter, we had a joint banking account that is closed. And I'm sorry. And that was it.

Frank Powers

He couldn't handle her family. 

Gloria Horsley

The whole, he just wanted, you know, where to be more dependent, more low key and whatever, whatever. Anyways, so I'm there. And guess what, I got COVID. So I couldn't leave. 

So, I'm in Hawaii in a hotel room by myself. And I always kind of get my thoughts together by writing articles or a book or something. So when I first got in-laws, I wrote a book called The In-laws Survival Manual. So that's kind of how I kind of organized my mind. So I thought, I learned so much from this relationship that I didn't know after 60 years with the same guy. I'll write a book for widows. That sort of helped me figure it out. 

So I'm like, well, I guess if I were to write a book on widows, I need to put a chapter in on online dating. So I went online and said, dating over 60 or 50, and I came up with Silver Singles as the site to use. So I went on Silver Singles and met two guys on Silver Singles who were in Arizona. I was staying with my sister then. And she was helping me through the grieving process. And so I went to Arizona, and I met one guy, Dave,

Frank Powers

Who wore his Shriners shirt…

(laughter)

…to his first meeting with her. It had “Dave” across the lapel, so after those two, I looked pretty good.

Gloria Horsley

Well, yeah, and when I met Frank for coffee, I mean, I broke all the rules you weren't supposed to do. 

Frank Powers

You mean for happy hours, anyway, and Earth Day is not something suggested.

Gloria Horsley

Yes. So, Frank had sent me his website, because he's a sculptor, and a therapist. And I'd sent him my Open to Hope website and so…

Frank Powers

We knew quite a bit about one another, and we knew that we were involved in the community and weren't scammers or anything like that. So it was very easy for us to have the first meeting, which just went swimmingly well.

Gloria Horsley

Yes indeed. So I met Frank, and I said to him, first thing off, I want to tell you that I'm not really dating. I'm writing a book for widows. This is research.

Frank Powers

Now, there's more going on here than research.  (laughter)

Jane Trombley

One of the big things about the book at the beginning is the sense of the buddy system. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I think for people who don't know where to begin, and they're old, and they've been out of the dating scene altogether for a while, certainly online dating is a strange and maybe bewildering animal, how does your buddy system that you describe help?

Frank Powers

We really felt like that; it's a new adventure. And this did not exist for most of us back when we were 20 or 30 years old. So this is a brand new thing. And you really need to have a support group. And we call it dating buddy. And it can be one person or it can be several. We kind of think that it's good to have more than one because you never know when you're going to need to get a hold of your dating buddy and talk about an experience when you're on a date or something that either went extremely well or did not go well. Either way, you need a dating buddy to talk this over with and make it natural and normal and part of the process of just learning how to date in this new era.

Gloria Horsley

Right, and also, technology can be an issue. You know, if you have trouble getting your picture, you know, doing these different websites, you might find a dating buddy whose younger grandchildren are great. Grandchildren.  [Because they know the system, you know]  They've been dating. They get a kick out of going over your pictures with you and doing all this kind of stuff. And they will help you get online and they won't be like,” Oh Grandma, you shouldn't do that.” They'll be like Grandma, this is awesome!

Frank Powers

You’re HOT!

Jane Trombley

You need a digital dating buddy.

Gloria Horsley

Or your older friends you know who are online.  Your kids are not particularly good dating buddies because they don't want to hear about your romantic life. I mean, they only so, you know, want to go so far with it.

Frank Powers

They’re worried about you. They're afraid someone's going to scam you, or you know, you're going to be brokenhearted again, and they don't want you hurt.

Gloria Horsley

And your married friends aren't going to be happy when you call them at 10 o'clock at night about your date. 

Jane Trombley

Obviously, the online dating world worked beautifully for you guys. But there are, there are other options.

Gloria Horsley

If you put your money in and become an online dater, there's a little gland in your brain that says, I'm dating. And you start getting out of your sweats. [Yes, and your full mental attitude] Online, you might meet somebody at a class reunion, you might meet them, who knows where you might meet them

Frank Powers

Grocery shopping.

Gloria Horsley

Online, it's honestly where the most action is.

Frank Powers

And for women, it's particularly good because online dating, and for seniors, it's really 50–50. Right? And it's not 50-50 in the real world, so women have a much better chance of meeting people they wouldn't normally meet if they go online. The biggest thing is you generally don't necessarily want to have a long-distance relationship. But if that's what happens, that's what happens. But you do; you have to be careful about long-distance relationships. And under no circumstances, if you go online, should you ever give money.  [you give no money!]

Jane Trombley

Yeah, let's circle back to that. Because I think the whole financial thing gets to be very thorny, as the relationship takes wing. But I wondered about this geography thing. When you put in your search parameters, can you GEO locate?

Frank Powers

If you like, how far are you willing to go? And in rural areas, you know it is a little more difficult than urban areas. You generally don't have a problem with having enough people in your geographic area. But you can imagine in rural areas, you might have to go a longer distance to meet someone who would be, you know, someone who might possibly be the one.

Jane Trombley

Yeah, so be open to that, and open to a broader geographic range than you might otherwise live in. 

Frank Powers

You want to meet them in person as early as possible because that eliminates the scamming. You get a much better feeling for the person. 

Gloria Horsley

Yeah, there's gotta be some chemistry. Yeah,

Jane Trombley

You give so much good practical advice in your book, and I'd love to get to these broader issues and some of your anecdotal experiences about, not so much the dating, because clearly it worked for you. But the challenges along developing a committed relationship, and specifically, the one that I think worries family members and can be an issue, is money management. 

Gloria Horsley

Well, the reality is, you're never going to have exactly the same amount of money. It's just one person is going to have more than the other. [mutual agreement]. It’s going to be very rare if you have exactly the same amount of money. So you need to look at that and decide how you want to deal with that.

Frank Powers 

There are a number of ways of dealing with that.  A prenuptial is not foolproof, but it's certainly very helpful to do that. [If you decide to get married] Yeah, if you decide to get married. And the prenuptial is helpful, but it's not, it's not going to answer all the questions that you have. And so one of the things you need to do is have an open conversation and talk about it. It's not exactly the most romantic thing to do, but I will tell you, if you want a long term committed relationship, you need to discuss the money issue.

Gloria Horsley

And you need to discuss it early on, about what you're going to do. Your family needs to know.  I have a friend who's having trouble three years in because he and the woman he's married to now want to buy a house together and his kids are now upset about it. 

I mean, these things have to be discussed. I mean, you can have problems down the line. You're just setting up problems. 

But one of the things that you start with in your profile is I want somebody who is financially responsible. I am, I expect you to be. I want to know people have a retirement plan and, you know, that they're taking care of themselves physically as well as financially.  I do it; I expect you to do it. And don't go with somebody if you don't know anything. Oh, by the way, you can go online and through places like the white papers [and find out and verify if people have been bankrupt.

Frank Powers

 You can find out all kinds of things from public records. 

Gloria Horsley

My son-in-law is a lawyer, and he investigated Frank thoroughly.

Frank Powers

Yes, I was vetted. 

Gloria Horsley

Finances are an issue, and your kids may not be happy that you're dating somebody, and they may not want you to, and they may not want you to get married, and they may, you know, you have to figure out your finances and figure it out with your partner. 

Jane Trombley

And I think that's an issue where senior wisdom really comes into play. And whereas in one's 20s, or even 30’s, you're going to get so caught up in the romance and the sort of VaVaVooom of a relationship, and you're young enough to weather these storms, but not so much in your 60’s, 70’s or beyond.  

Frank Powers

So you want to know exactly what both of you are, what's going on, and how you want to go forward together. Now, Gloria and I thought that we were going to get married, and we had a license, and we had a prenuptial, and they had all these kinds of things. And then, because we had some insight about things, we decided for us that there's really no reason to get married. And if there is, we'll always do it. But it's a choice. You don't have to.

Jane Trombley

But like anything, you're old enough to do what you want.

Frank Powers

One of the advantages of getting older. There are few, but…

Voiceover

You're listening to the  Crow's Feet Valentine's Day special with doctors Gloria Horsley and Frank Powers, co-authors of Open to Love: The Secrets of Senior Dating. If you're 55 or older, we'd love to hear your story. Whether you're in the dating game, just thinking about it, or maybe afraid to put your toe back into that water. Please call our Crow's Feet feedback line at 943-300-5227 to share your experience or feelings about senior dating. That's 943-300-5227 first names only, and the call is free.

Jane Trombley

There are surprising instances that come up. And particularly, as we get older, around health care, around caregiving, around sort of preparing for, you don't like to think about it, but, end of life. Have you been challenged by those things? And how have you navigated them through your relationship?

Gloria Horsley

Well, my husband had had like 12 back surgeries, and I had taken care of him a lot. And I just didn't want to do that again. And we know a lot about caregiver burnout. We see it all the time. as therapists.

Frank Powers

Caretaker syndrome is something that can really spoil a good relationship. In my case, my aunt, who is like my second mother, was with my uncle, and he had a stroke and had some problems. And she decided that she wanted to care for him at home and really didn't get extra assistance, which she could have. And she ended up being kind of like a shrew to him, angry because of the caretaking that she had. And it was way beyond what was necessary for her to do but she felt obligated to do it. And it kind of ruined their really nice relationship. It was  sad for me to go over and visit them.  And to see how this wonderful, beautiful love story was really damaged because of caretaking. So it's a real issue.

Gloria Horsley

I hear so many women tell me, I don't want to date because I don't want to be a nurse to a prisoner. All the women stop playing bridge and giggle together about it. And I'm like, okay, you're gonna be lonely because you can't stand up and say, I want a prenup. If you want to get married, you can't stand up and say, Hey, Frank, when you have your knee done, I am going to be in Hawaii,

Frank Powers

I’m gonna be in Hawaii, having fun. You need to take care of you.  

Gloria Horsley

This just happened to us, by the way.

Frank Powers

A book, I read every book. 

Gloria Horsley

So we get to Arizona, and he's gonna have his knee done, and I recruit my friend, and we go to Hawaii. We’re gonna stay for a month because that's when he can drive again. So, I get a call in Hawaii. I'm there for Christmas with my buddy.

Frank Powers

 Hi. By the way, I was on the gurney going in to have surgery. 

I had the IV in, and it was like ten steps to the surgical center. And the anesthesiologist says no, your blood pressure is too high.

Gloria Horsley

I'm not gonna operate on you. 

Frank Powers

Yes. So now, I gotta do it again] 

Gloria Horsley

Yes. So Frank is having it in April. He's going to stay here in Arizona, and I'm going to go to my house in Palo Alto.

Frank Powers

We're protecting our relationship from burnout.

Gloria Horsley

I did say to Frank, “Hey, when I'm in Hawaii, if you have problems, you need to put the emergency number. It is not me; it’s your stepdaughter.[ 

Frank Powers

Exactly. 

Gloria Horsley

But the healthcare system will try to sabotage you. 

Jane Trombley

Okay, how so?

Gloria Horsley

They want females to take care of you.

Frank Powers

Well, tell them that when the doctor said when we talked about the fact that I was going to be cared for in a rehab center after my surgery.

Gloria Horsley

Yeah, the doctor's assistant there said, “Well, you know, you should take care of it. Are you sure you're not going to take care of him? Research shows if he goes into a rehab unit he won't do as well. People don't know this. If you have knee surgery in California, I don't know, you know, it depends on your insurance. But if you have it in a hospital, you can go into a rehab unit. If you have it in an outpatient clinic, your insurance will not pay for the rehab. So if you ask your doctor specifically, does it matter where you operate, insurance wise, from rehab, you may find out it makes a big difference.

Jane Trombley

Such important news because yes, that can be very expensive. Or, as you say, contribute to the caregiver burnout.

Frank Powers

And financial worries. It could be a burden financially, and you don't want to be a burden to your new relationship…You know, you don't want that to happen because it really does put a strain, an unnecessary strain on the relationship,

Gloria Horsley

Ask your kids or family members to come in and help you.

Jane Trombley

I imagine the same philosophy, in your case anyway, would apply as you start looking at end-of-life issues, your health proxies, and that kind of thing.

Frank Powers

We have a wonderful thing. This is kind of cute, for us, is that Phil was an absolutely wonderful person.

Gloria Horsley

My deceased husband. 

Frank Powers

And the more I find out about him through the family, the more I respect him, and Gloria has a plot next to him. And then there's a plot next to her. Gloria said, Well, what do you want to do? And I said, “Well, I think it would be kind of interesting,” if I was on the other side of you. A rose between two thorns.

(Laughter)

Gloria Horsley

So his stepdaughters will have to find a way to make that happen.

Frank Powers

It was kind of cool. I mean, really.

Gloria Horsley

But it's all about talking about it. 

Frank Powers

Yeah, find out what works for you. Because there's so many different options at this point in your life. And don't be hemmed into all traditional ways. If you have a new thing, and you want to be buried next to your loved one, and they're going to have their husband next to them. You know, and that works for you. Hey, go for it. I mean, I think it's gonna work for me.

Gloria Horsley

My son-in-law said, “I'm gonna put arrows on your tombstone for pointing.” 

Jane Trombley

I would say you two have this covered.

Gloria Horsley

The thing about the book is that it talks about all these crazy things.

Frank Powers

All these issues are things that people don't necessarily think of at the time, and they are infatuated with the person. But these are all things you're going to have to deal with. And I think you're very right to ask us about, okay, what are end of life issues, because you do need to deal with those.

Jane Trombley

I love this idea that you have presented in the context of health care and caregiving, is that you are removing the burden from the other person. Gloria, you're removing the burden of care from Frank, and Frank, you very proactively have removed the burden of care from Gloria. And it seems like that is at root a communications issue. That has been a hallmark of your relationship.

Gloria Horsley

Absolutely. Because you know, when you get married when you're young, you know, we're richer for poorer, til death do us part and all that. It's a different ballgame.

Frank Powers

Yeah. And you need to deal with the realities of your current life, not when you're 20 or 30.

Jane Trombley

It is so refreshing to hear you speak of an exciting, really, love opportunity that comes when it's least expected. And in the senior years of our lives. Would you have ever guessed that this was going to be in your future?

Gloria Horsley

Absolutely not. My husband, deceased husband, said to me, we knew he was in critical condition. He said, Gloria, you're going to have another relationship. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm not. And he said, Yeah, you are. And it gave me permission. But I didn't think that it would happen. I said to my granddaughter; she said, “Grandma, don't you want to play the field,” and I said, “Liza, at this age, there is no field.”

Frank Powers

My part, I was divorced a couple of years before I met Gloria. And I was at the end of my career, kind of deciding, well, what am I going to do? You know, I'm kind of an old guy. Is there really a possibility? And I had gone online and met some lovely people previously, and I had met my past wife there. And so I said, well, one more time, I'm gonna go on Silver Singles one more time. Because I was all set to go to the senior community and see what my chances are.

Jane Trombley

And look what the heavens sent. It is a wonderful Valentine's story. I think this is going to make everybody, it's going to put a spring in everyone's step to consider ourselves. So are you guys the “one-offs”? Are you the Unicorns of the senior dating center? What? How do you address that? When people say, “Oh, sure, well, it happened to you, you guys were lucky. Not gonna happen to me.”

Frank Powers

We're having a blast helping other people get over their fears, get over their feeling of, “Oh no, I'm too old. There's no one out there. All the good guys or all the good women are taken.” All those kinds of things that we say to ourselves. That's not true.

Gloria Horsley

You only need one person, one person, that's all you're looking for.  

Frank Powers

Yes, it happened]. 

Gloria Horsley

It happened to us. [And we talk, We see it happening all the time]. Now, because people know what they're doing. Also, we hear people come up, we met online, you would be surprised. I'm surprised how many people have met online, it's really high. And I'm talking about older people. 50, 60,70. 

Frank Powers

The largest increase in a group is the seniors that are online. There are more seniors getting online percentage wise than any other age group.

Jane Trombley

Online dating, specifically?

Frank Powers

Online dating.

Gloria Horsley

You know, it’s where the action is. If you want to catch fish, go to where the fish are.

Frank Powers

And I'm a fish. I got hooked.

Jane Trombley

Happily so. Are there tricks or tips outside the scope of your book that you would suggest people try or keep in mind as they either contemplate online dating, get them over the hump to say, Okay, I'm going to do this?

Frank Powers

Well, we have a set of five rules about dating one. And we've already talked about, and that is making sure that you get a dating buddy and you don't do this alone. You should never go ahead alone. You need to have people help you figure out, well, what's working and what's not, to deal with sadness about something that's disappointing. Or the joy of meeting someone that you're really excited about.

Gloria Horsley

And then it takes time. You need to know that, and you need to create some space in your life for it. And you may even want to clean out a closet or a drawer that you might think they may need.

Frank Powers

Make space for someone new. If you want someone, you've got to make space.

Gloria Horsley

And then we talk about going where the action is. 80% of women will be widowed in their lifetime. Remember that it's 50-50 online because more men go online than women.

Jane Trombley

That changes the odds.

Frank Powers

It really grows through your disappointments, because not everyone is going to be the ideal date or the perfect person for you. You're going to have to go through a number of different people, probably, to find the one. But every time you have a relationship, and we call them almost relationships, where, wow, we're really excited about this. We'd have a couple of dates where maybe dating for a month or two, and all of a sudden, you find that there is some kind of issue that you can't get past. And so, you've learned you're a better dater. You're a better consumer. And so, take that in yourself as, Hey, now I'm a veteran, I know exactly what I want and what I don't want. 

Gloria Horsley

Now, you were saying, about going on a date. I want to back up a little bit. You're going for 15 minutes of coffee.

Frank Powers

Yeah, but maybe longer

Gloria Horsley

If you don't like them, and we talk about how you can kind of turn somebody down sweetly. But you meet him for coffee, and you say, “You know, you're nice, but I don't think it's going to work out.” And you leave.

Frank Powers

And we wish you luck. 

Gloria Horsley

We wish you luck finding somebody, and you leave. Yeah, and you keep doing that until you get someone, but as I said, you might meet people somewhere else. Once you get out of the sweats, when you get a smile on your face. You buy a new scarf, you put on a little more makeup, you know, whatever, who knows? But what have you got to lose?

Jane Trombley

You never know where Cupid's arrow is going to fall.

Gloria Horsley

EXACTLY!

Jane Trombley

 Open to Love: The Secrets of Senior Dating hits the bookshelves today at Amazon and other outlets. 

So, does listening to Gloria and Frank make you eager to try dating? Or do you have a chapter of your own to share? If so, please tell us about it on our Crow’s Feet feedback line at 943-300-5227. 

Leave your story or thoughts and your first name only. That's 943-300-5227. Just let it ring and wait for the beep. The call is free. Oh, and your comments may be heard on a future Crow's Feet episode. So keep it real. Okay, thanks. 

Happy Valentine's Day from all the crew at the Crow's Feet podcast. Executive producer Nancy Peckenham, along with George “Ace” Acevedo, Elizabeth Alan, Lee Bench, Melinda Blau, Jean Feld Iveson, Jen M. Flynn, Nancy Franklin, and me, Jane Trombley. Editing and Sound Design by Rich Halton, and our theme music was composed and performed by Rand Bishop.

Voiceover

Thanks for joining us on this episode of Crow's Feet, Life as We Age. Don't miss any of our great stories. Subscribe to Crow's Feet wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to tell your friends and family to listen and leave a rating or review. You can read more Crow's Feet stories online at Medium.com forward slash Crow's hyphen feet. So, until next time, remember to savor every moment. 

As Jackie Joyner Kersee said, ”Age is no barrier. It's a limitation you put on your mind.

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