Older Adults Can Help Build a Kinder World — For Themselves and Everyone Else

In this episode, Dr. Dale Atkins talks with Jan M Flynn about something many of us would love to see more of in our communities, nation, and world: Kindness. More specifically, what authentic kindness means, and how it can show up in deeper and richer ways as we age — and how that can contribute to a kinder world for us all.

Based in New York City, Dale Atkins is a licensed psychologist with more than 40 years experience as a relationship expert focusing on families, wellness, managing stress, and living a balanced, meaningful life. Author of seven books and many chapters, articles, and journals for popular and professional audiences, Dale is a featured speaker who lectures and leads seminars worldwide. She has appeared regularly on NBC’s TODAY and CNN. Dale has a private psychology practice in New York City and has been a member of, and advisor to, several nonprofit boards, including Jumpstart for Young Children, from which she recently retired after serving twenty-two years, since its founding. She has two children and six grandchildren, and lives in Connecticut.

Show note links: 

Dr. Dale Atkins website: https://www.drdaleatkins.com/

Nature Walk Talks by Dale Atkins

Books by Dr. Atkins:

The Kindness Advantage: Cultivating Compassionate and Connected Children
https://www.drdaleatkins.com/the-kindness-advantage-book/

Sanity Savers: Tips For Women To Live a Balanced Life
https://www.drdaleatkins.com/sanity-savers-book/

Wedding Sanity Savers: How to Handle the Stickiest Dilemmas, Scrapes, and Questions That Arise on the Road to Your Perfect Dayhttps://www.drdaleatkins.com/wedding-sanity-savers-book/

I’m OK, You’re My Parents: How to Overcome Guilt, Let Go of Anger, and Create a Relationship That Works
https://www.drdaleatkins.com/im-ok-youre-my-parents-book/

Sisters
https://www.drdaleatkins.com/sisters-book/

From the Heart: Men and Women Write Their Private Thoughts About Their Married Lives
https://www.drdaleatkins.com/from-the-heart-book/

Transcript

Dr. Atkins:  When you can convey deep compassion and empathy to another human being, or an animal, or a community, people are not questioning you. They feel connected. They can get goose bumps.

INTRO:  This is Crow's Feet, a place where we ponder the question, are these our golden years, or does aging just suck? Well, yes, getting older is not for the faint-hearted, but aging also brings wisdom and humor, a finely tuned perspective on life. In our podcast, you'll meet writers and others rethinking our later years, people who inspire us to reimagine our future.

Jan:  I’m your host for this episode, Jan M Flynn, and happy holidays to our listeners who celebrate any or all of the special days this time of year. Whether you observe Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Yule, or a Festivus for the rest of us, if we're in the Northern Hemisphere, we all look to find the light and joy in the darkening days of winter. And all of these celebrations and observations center around goodwill and generosity and kindness, which is why it is so fitting that my guest for this episode is Dr. Dale Atkins.

Dale is a licensed psychologist with a private counseling practice“ in New York City, and she has over 40 years' experience as a relationship expert. She has authored seven books and still is a featured speaker and seminar leader, and she's appeared on The Today Show many times. She's a mother of two children and a grandmother of six, and she graciously accepted our invitation to Crow's Feet because today we're going to be exploring one of her favorite topics, kindness, how kindness relates to aging.

So welcome to the show, Dr. Dale Atkins.

Dr. Atkins:  Thank you for the invitation. And yes, on such a perfect day to talk about kindness. I think a lot of us feel like the world could use a lot more kindness right now. So we're going to dive into that. And I had the pleasure of reading two of your books.

One is “The Kindness Advantage,” which really focuses on parenting, but I think has messages in it that are applicable to everybody. And the other one is Sanity Savers. I can't think of a more appropriate title for these days for women trying to find the balance in life.

And I found a lot that was very useful in “Sanity Savers”. And there's going to be links to all of your books in our show notes. So can you give us an overview of what authentic kindness looks like?

It really started as my wanting to inquire more about how do you raise charitable children. And then I looked into what was part of a charitable person's nature. And then we decided that kindness was such an important element of people who were charitable, for some people who were charitable.

And then we started diving into kindness. We kind of figured that there were 10 fundamentals of kindness, but I've added some others. And the 10 fundamentals had to do with acceptance and commitment.

We found that people who were able to be accepting of others and themselves, and a situation, that doesn't mean they want to not change it, but they were accepting of what it was, committed to something or someone or some kind of change. They felt connection to a community, a person deep within themselves. They had empathy and they were comfortable expressing empathy.

 They very much were a part of a giving experience. They enjoyed giving and they were interested in other people. They were interested and they were curious and they were nurturing, often of themselves through difficult times and nurturing of others as they were trying to build something or change something.

We noticed that another three fundamentals of kindness when we were writing the book had to do with observing. These people had observational skills. They noticed, they looked carefully, they listened carefully, and they questioned, they questioned the status quo.

And then we found that probably one of the most important, if not the most important, fundamental of kindness was a person being him or herself, really being who they were in their essence, and being able to with all of their positives and negatives and imperfections, really show up as they were. So there's an authenticity. And Jan, I would just add that in the ensuing years, since we wrote Kindness Advantage, I certainly would have added gratitude.

What I really like about all those, all those elements is that those are all individual choices that we can make no matter what is going on in the world around us. I mean, that's, there's so much that we cannot control. But what we can control is our response to a situation. But how do we extend kindness to ourselves at a time like this, and still show kindness to others whose beliefs maybe don't jive with our own?

Dr. Atkins:   It's such a perfect question, and I'm so glad you're asking it on this very special day, when many of us are going to be with people with whom we don't agree.

And yet we may love them deeply, but we find ourselves walking on eggshells. The first response is we have to take care of ourselves, we have to take care of and strengthen our core. So what is our core?

What is our moral compass? What is, what are our values? And how can we live them?

And when we really look at them deeply, whether we are a religious person, a spiritual person, most of us would agree, Jan, that we generally like to treat people the way we would like to be treated. And when we treat ourselves well, when we listen deeply to what we need, when we pay attention to what our preferences might be, whether that's staying in bed an extra 10 minutes or jumping out of bed 10 minutes early, whatever it is, we have to take care of ourselves so that whenever we, quote, anticipate that we may be going into battle or going into an environment that is less than friendly, that we are going to be okay, that we have what we need, that we have a deep resilience, that we've been in a situation before where we have handled it either poorly or well, and we can go back and say, what did I do then that I don't want to do now? Or what did I do then that I'd like to do more of?

And what do I need to draw on within myself? Do I need to have the echo of my mother's voice encouraging me, with me? Even though she's not with me, I can still pull her up and I can hear her.

And that to me gives me straight great strength. I can go into a room where there might be one person who I had a really lovely engagement with once before. And instead of spending time with everybody else initially, I might go right for that person.

And I might literally and metaphorically breathe them in and tell them how wonderful it is to be with them at this moment, so that I surround myself with that which I need to be able to get through a situation more comfortably. And I say, what do we need to do if we're going into a situation that could be less than pleasant? What do we do before we go?

Do we listen to an inspirational tape? Do we have our favorite cup of flavor of tea? Do we spend an extra five minutes with our dog or cat?

Do we call a friend? What is it that we do so that before we go in, we feel stronger, we feel more centered? I find that as we get older, some of the people that we may have even used to calling may not be as readily available as they once were.

So we need to add others and or find ways to connect with those people with whom we have an eternal love relationship. It doesn't mean that they have to be here in person, but we feel the strength, the encouragement, the confidence building, whatever it was. It could have been a teacher, a parent, a friend, but we tap into it.

And there's not a culture that I know of that doesn't encourage us to do that. So when you talk about entering a period of time that probably will be legendary historically, how can we as individuals with strength and fortitude and curiosity and good listening skills and empathy really enter that space without losing who we are and without losing our center?

One of the advantages of going through this extraordinary time in history as an older person is that we do have more life experience and we probably have more experience of confronting situations, challenging to us without betraying our core values. And I think that's an important part of kindness because it means we are truly being kind and not just seeking approval.

I think that what many of us can learn when we get older and as we age is we have the incredible gift of being able to look back, review our lives, and say, I'm so happy and proud of myself for handling that situation in that way, or had I been faced with that situation now, I think I would like to handle it this way. And we have that ability to reflect and to be honest about what we're able to do now that we might not have been able to do before. And rather than beat ourselves up about it, for any number of reasons why we didn't think we would have taken this road or that road, we have the chance to do it now.”

Because we feel more grounded, more comfortable, we may be more vulnerable because we see how vulnerable life is.

The components of kindness and authenticity, authentic kindness remain the same, but how it looks and how we employ it and receive it can change as we age. I'd love for you to speak to that because sometimes as we get older and our conditions change and maybe we need more from other people, that can present a challenge to us.

Dr. Atkins:  It often presents a challenge because we have views of ourselves, often as independent or strong or resilient, and that doesn't need to alter when we need help. We are still the same person. We just need a bit of help in order to be able to continue the life that we want to live.

But the kindness factor, Jan, I believe really is about, do we deserve to be kind to ourselves? And can we not look at everything as a transaction Sometimes when we need help, we forget what a gift it is for others to be able to be helpful. Because most of us want to be of service.”

Most of us want to have a purpose. And most of us want to feel as if we have value. And somehow the way we age for some of us gets very mixed up with our value.

We feel that we are not contributing because we are contributing differently. And I would like all of us, young and old, or younger and older, to be able to really look through this vessel and say, how are we able to contribute? And how can we really look for each other's strengths, maximize each other's strengths, as we pay attention to helping with those parts that become weaker?

Whether we need to slow down physically, whether we need to slow down the way we listen, and talk, because it may just be too much of a jumble for some people, but if we speak more slowly, if we're cognizant of choosing a table in a restaurant that's near a wall, right, and near the bar, we are paying attention and maximizing the opportunity for all of us to focus on what's still working well, rather than what needs adjustment. And so I think that these acts of kindness, the small ones in particular, are very contagious and science shows that they are contagious. So when we start doing something for someone, someone who sees us doing something for someone will be likely to do something for someone else.

The recipient is more likely to do kind acts, which brings us back to the question of when we ask for help. So if we ask for help, we're actually giving someone the opportunity to help us, and they feel good about it. And we, the recipient of a kind act, will probably look for a way to be kind to someone else in a way that suits us at this moment in time.

So rather than focusing on what we can't do anymore, and that's in quotes, we focus on what we can do now. So the more we do this, the more kind acts, the more we notice, the more we appreciate, and the more we express our gratitude deeply and authentically. Not just thanks for your help, but it meant so much to me the way you moved the chair when I was walking in with my walker, because I just couldn't see how I was in negotiate, and you didn't make a big deal about it, you just did it, and that was so kind of you.

These are the kinds of kindnesses and expressions of gratitude that make a difference.

It's interesting to think about being grateful for the things that people do to help us adjust to changing circumstances without feeling like it's somehow making us pathetic. And I'm thinking of my late husband's mother, who was really a great role model for this, because she was quite formidable, and she not only thought she deserved help, she expected it, but she was very gracious. I told my sons, as they were little boys, is when your grandmother“comes over, you get the chair out for her, you help her, you stand up when she comes in the room.

Dr. Atkins:   And I could see that they felt important because they had a role to play with how they behaved towards their grandmother. And it was good for them, instead of her feeling apologetic and bad that she needed extra help.

And one of the other lessons you were teaching them was to respect this older woman who had lived a great life, and they, in fact, were showing her respect. And I'll bet you that they've taken that message. And hopefully, when you are in a position of wanting and needing some kind of help, you don't have to tell them because they already know what they're supposed to do.

Well, I hope so. We'll see.

Dr. Atkins:   I appreciate that you brought in your mom, and I'll bring in my mom, because she was very adamant about not wanting people to anticipate what they thought she was going to need when she felt fully competent, thank you very much for being able to do whatever it was she could do.

That way, people really noticed and allowed her to maintain her agency, her independence, her confidence, her dignity, and that is something that I think helps when we age, helps to make us continue to feel visible instead of invisible.

So many people, as we age, who feel that we're invisible. We go up to a group and everybody's talking, and all of a sudden, unless we include ourselves in the conversation, we may not be invited in the conversation. That's a very important element for some people as they age, if they have a diminished hearing, or if diminished vision, or if they're a bit slower.

They feel that, sometimes very correctly, that other people's perceptions of them is that they don't have much to bring to the party. When in fact, they may have an enormous amount to bring to the party, the party just has to make an adjustment. We don't really pay that much attention to that, noticing with our eyes wide open, with a sense of curiosity, with a sense of empathy, with a sense of interest in these other people who are with us in an intergenerational setting.”

One of the responsibilities, I guess, or challenges of getting older is to claim your place at the table. You know, to not allow yourself to become invisible. It might be a little harder. It might take a little more assertiveness, you know, speak up and maybe be the formidable but gracious older woman or man who joins the conversation and doesn't wait to be invited. And that's a way of showing kindness to ourselves.

Dr. Atkins:   You know, it's interesting. Many people, as they get older and they, perhaps they had a career and they're no longer in the world of their career and they wonder, you know, what exactly, who am I? What is my identity now?

And then over time, it's very possible that they become, that we become more comfortable without having all of that, of our identity and we create other aspects of our identity. We explore other aspects of our identities. And yet when we are introduced to people, we are introduced as someone who did that or was that.

When others want to connect with me, they connect with me not where I am now, but where I was then. And that is such an important element, I think, for us to recognize, how do we embrace our getting older and engaging in different activities, while still appraising our life, reappraising our life, giving ourselves credit, expressing gratitude for what we had, but that no longer defines us.

And maybe one of the things we have to offer is to help our youngers get past their, what can I say, get past their ego, because they're not their jobs or houses or cars, or perfectly functioning bodies either. And they're going to find that out.

Dr. Atkins:   To add a little meat on that is we all evolve. And if other's perceptions of us is that we are, we are in that same place that we were 40 years ago, how can we comfortably evolve and say, yes, that was just part of my weave. I often find myself using this weave.

And that thread was very important and still is, and it was at one point very bright in my coat. Now it's still there, but it's a little faded because I've added other threads to the weave. And these are more prominent.

And that's what I'd really like to be to you now, unless you are coming to me as the role I played then, as the person I was then, and I can be helpful to you in that role. Or would you like to meet me where I am now? And I think that's where we have a lot to learn with intergenerational kindness.

I will give you a quick example. I love birdwatching and I started doing it with great intention during COVID. And in this little birdwatching group that meets once a month in a nearby park, I am the least knowledgeable in the group.

And I'm so curious and I love it and I have such a good time. And I'm learning as I'm going, but there are a lot of really, really knowledgeable ornithologists in the group. What I love about the group is there are some kids in the group.

There were some teenagers. Oh, that's great. There were some kids in their 20s.

And I find that we're walking together and we're talking about what we're doing. And it's such a lovely encounter because I learn a lot about what they're doing. I share what I'm doing.

And it's, you know, and then we look at, oh my God, look at that bird or look what it's doing. And we share something in common, but we're also sharing where we are in our lives. It's so organic.

It's so comfortable, you know, because we have to still be connected as we get older. If we're only relying on being connected to our peers, that group isn't going to be around for a really long time. And the kinds of encounters that we have are essential to our well-being.

They are so important to be there to support each other as we go through. Life's challenges often would show up as we get older. And we can add to that a whole other cadre of people and experiences who are at different stages of their lives.

You never know where you're going to find those friends, but you will find them when you slow down, when you get off your phone, when you engage with people, if you go to get a cup of tea or coffee at a local coffee place. When you take a moment and talk to someone at the side of the street where you're walking, these are the ways you will engage. These are the ways where you will add people in your life, and you will have an encounter where it gave you an opportunity to do a kindness, not just receive one.

MIDPOINT BREAK:  The Crow's Feet Life As We Age podcast team is planning something special for our Valentine's Day 2025 episode, and we want your advice and your experience at the heart of it. Whether we're talking about a relationship of one year or 50, we know that successful relationships aren't always a bed of roses. Both people have to work at it.

So, we'd like to hear from you. What keeps you and your partner together? How do you compromise, strategize, or just plain improvise to keep your relationship in a good place?

If you've got some practical advice or a relevant relationship story to share with us, there are two ways you can do it. One is to record your answer on your iPhone and see the tips in the show notes for directions on exactly how to do that, and then send us the audio file. Or, you can call our telephone line at 1-800-222-2216 and leave a message. That's toll free, 1-800-222-2216. Please do include your name, a contact phone number or email address for you. Aim for messages for no more than two minutes in length.

The deadline to submit is Sunday, February 2nd. And thanks for being part of the Crow's Feet community.

We're back with Dr. Dale Atkins, practicing psychologist, speaker, author, and relationship expert who's joined us today to talk about kindness and kindness as it relates to aging. I want to take a moment here to point up two things that our listeners should know. One is that on Dale's website, she has a link to some really motivating and inspirational YouTube videos on Nature Walk Talk.

If you can't get outside yourself on a day where the weather's bad, they're just wonderful to watch. So I would encourage listeners to go to our show notes and find the link to your website and your Nature Walk Talks link as well. And another is that you have a children's book in the works, The Turquoise Butterfly, which is due to launch in, I believe, late summer or early fall of 2025.

That would be a perfect time for the next holiday season for folks who have grandchildren. Can you tell us real briefly about that story?

Dr. Atkins:   Thank you for talking about the Nature Walk Talks. They started during COVID, by the way, when so many people were indoors and did get a jolt. And thank you for mentioning the Turquoise Butterfly, which is really an homage to my late mother, Sylvia.

And it's a story about a little granddaughter who is a bit anxious and a very, very out-there grandmother who is fearless and adventurous. And she reminds us of a turquoise butterfly because it's her favorite color and her favorite insect. But more importantly, it's about the eternality of love and how even after a person dies, that their spirit is with us and their inspiration is with us.

I'm hoping that it will be encouraging for all grandparents.

What you're saying about is kind of making me messed up here. Before the break, you had brought up some of the particular issues with giving and receiving kindness as we age. And that leads right into something that many of us are going to face or have faced or are facing right now in one way or another, and that is caregiving.

And that, of course, is a huge multi-layered topic. But I'd like it if you could zoom in on the kindness aspect of caregiving as we give or receive care.

Dr. Atkins:   It's probably the most important discussion we can have about kindness because I don't think that you can be as good a caregiver as we'd all like to be without taking care of ourselves, yet it is the caregiver who usually is last on the list. And most caregivers are women, and we've been caregiving our whole lives. But as we age, we are caregiving for others who are generally our siblings, our spouses, sometimes our children, often our parents.

And the kinds of internal resources that we need to rely on are often depleted. You can't go to a dry reservoir to get water. Yet, so many of us allow our reservoirs to get dry because of many reasons.

Either we feel that no one can take care of the person as well as we can. And so we feel guilty if we're not doing what we think we need to do, particularly if there's a degenerative disease. We want to be there as much as we can.

We often put ourselves in situations that are dangerous to ourselves. We lift people who are too heavy.  We stay in situations that may be dangerous.”

We don't get extra help when we need it. And so I start at the beginning with the Sanity Savers. You know, how do we take care of ourselves?

What can we savor? What can we learn? And what do we know about ourselves?

So how do we start our day? We jump out of bed and the first thing that we do is run to see how we can take care. What is our first job?

And it could be that the person we're caring for is already up. And maybe demand something of us that we're not even ready for. So we have to try and consider what it is our goal is, what is our mission, and what are we capable of each day?

If we are a full-time caregiver, how are we going to get ourselves fed and nurtured? Is it going to be through a 5-minute or a 20-minute meditation moment? Is it going to be a prayer?

Is it going to be a conversation with a friend? Is it going to be an extra long shower? Is it, what is it going to be?

One of the things that helps a lot of caregivers is keeping a gratitude journal. And they are so faced every day with what they don't have and what they're lacking and what they miss, that at the beginning or the end of the day, when they stop and they think, what am I grateful for today? They can go through all kinds of things, but what am I grateful for in my relationship with the person I am caring for?

What am I grateful for? Am I grateful that today we had a little bit of an easier day? Am I grateful that I found a way to laugh?

Am I grateful that we listened to music and somehow we were dancing? We look for the very small, the very minute elements in our life that make all the difference in the world. These are the things that we take for granted and often don't notice, and those are the things that help us to take good care of ourselves.

The other thing, and it circles back to what you said before asking for help, how can people help us? And in addition to the gratitude list, you make a list of the things that all the people who want to help can do. It would be so helpful if you brought dinner on Tuesday.

Oh, you know what would be great if tomorrow you could walk the dog, or whatever it is, nothing is too small. And again, people want to help.

And sometimes it means, and I know this from my journey with my sister, my beloved middle sister who died of a degenerative neurological condition this summer, but some of that involved setting boundaries with her. She would want me to do things that I simply could not do or couldn't do safely. And I would just have to be kind of firm with her, or sometimes distract her, you know, as you would with a young child.

And I felt bad about it for a while, and then I realized, no, that's just me not accepting where she is. This is where she is, and this is how I can have a relationship with her.

Dr. Atkins:   I often, when I work with caregivers, I ask them to write a word. They think it helps them be kind to themselves that day in their engagement. And I've gotten so many words of patience, gratitude, flexibility, creativity, humor, and compassion, and positivity, and love.

But how can we actually perform them? How can we actually draw on ourselves to include them in our engagement with the person we're caring for? And it helps us to get out of our routine a little bit and add a little levity.

And the other thing is, how can we not be perfectionistic? You have to be perfectionistic if you're administering drugs, and you have to be perfectionistic when you're trying to help someone get from point A to point B. But short of that, there's not a whole lot you need to be perfectionistic with.

And if you loosen things a little bit and keep your boundaries, and I'm so glad you said that, your own limits, which, by the way, change day to day, because maybe you didn't sleep so well the night before, and you just don't have all that you need. So you might need to set up a situation where you can take a nap. And if you take a nap, that means the laundry didn't get done, but that's okay because you can do the laundry tomorrow.

And only if you're flexible and only if you really are kind to yourself at a very basic level.

It strikes me as I'm listening to you, that there is a real distinction and sometimes even a disconnect between authentic, genuine kindness and niceness, just sort of surface niceness.

Dr. Atkins:   A lot of people don't believe people who are nice. People on a very, very gut level believe people who are kind. The authenticity comes through, and the kindness is a meeting not only of minds but hearts.

When you can convey deep compassion and empathy to another human being or an animal or a community, people are not questioning you. They feel connected. They can get goosebumps.

They can get teary because they don't question your commitment. It's awfully nice to have someone nice sitting next to you on the bus.

It's nice when someone holds a door for you, although I would say that that's an act of kindness. But if we're really looking for depth and connection, we are human beings. Human beings are made to be connected.

That's what the human condition is. Nice is nice, but nice is not what the human being needs in order to thrive. In order to thrive, we need compassion, we need kindness, we need a sense of I see you.

And at this moment, we are one.

As we close out our time together, there are three questions that our Crow's Feet hosts like to pose to our guests about their own experiences of aging. First, what surprises you the most about aging?

Dr. Atkins:   That it came so fast. It just came so fast. I didn't realize it until I, you know, started celebrating birthdays with numbers that I used to think were old.

You're not the first person to say that. I think we all get a little surprised by that. Okay, so next, if you could, what would you now tell your 25-year-old self?

Dr. Atkins:   My 25-year-old self, that's 51 years ago. I would tell her to spend as much time as you can with your friends, and to understand that the choices that you make when you're 25, resonate with other people and you have to be aware of how they affect other people.

Okay, and then last question. What are you still trying to figure out as you age?

Dr. Atkins:   I'm actually trying to figure out how I can try to keep bringing kindness into a world that, at this moment in time, as you alluded to earlier, seems to have lost its way in very many places. And I just feel that that's my job, and I need to do it because it makes me feel better. And I want to really be able to enjoy my life for as long as I can.

And if I focus on all that's gone sour, without trying to figure out how I can add a little, you know, sugar to that, which I know works, I'll do better. I'll just, I'll do better in my life.

OUTRO:  Thanks for joining us on this episode of Crow's Feet, Life As We Age. Don't miss any of our great stories. Subscribe to Crow's Feet wherever you get your podcasts.

And be sure to tell your friends and family to give a listen to, and leave a rating or review. You can read more Crow's Feet stories online at www.medium.com/crowshyphenfeet.

So until next time, remember to savor every moment in the new year. As Sophia Loren said, aging is not how many years have passed, but how much life you've embraced.

From Crow's Feet: Life As We Age: Older Adults Can Help Build a Kinder World — For Themselves and Everyone Else, Dec 25, 2024

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/older-adults-can-help-build-a-kinder-world-for/id1629856339?i=1000681625425

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